This episode features couple Karen and Mark, who got married in the midst of Karen’s menopause journey. Tender, uplifting, and honest: their story captures how good communication through the menopause experience can help strengthen a relationship.
The debut episode of this season features couple Karen and Mark, who got married in the midst of Karen’s menopause journey. Tender, uplifting, and honest: their story captures how good communication through the menopause experience can help strengthen a relationship. Karen has used her own experiences to help other women, and Mark adds an invaluable perspective, as the first male voice of the podcast. Their story is about getting second chances in midlife and exemplifies how important patience and good communication are for supporting a partner through menopause.
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Disclaimer: menopause: unmuted is designed to raise awareness, encourage communication, and share information. It is not designed to provide medical advice or promote or recommend any treatment option.
Episode 1, Karen & Mark
Dr. Mary Jane Minkin:
It’s time to unmute menopause.
Hello and welcome back to another season of menopause: unmuted.
Since I recorded the very first episode back in 2020, menopause awareness has really gotten a lot better, but the more we can get comfortable talking about this very important stage of life, the more we can improve our knowledge, empathy and relationships. So, whether you’re in the thick of menopause, or you just want to support someone close to you, I want to welcome you all, and thank you all for listening.
I’m Mary Jane Minkin, I’m an OBGYN and clinical professor at Yale University School of Medicine and I have spent decades talking about menopause –which can be quite challenging, and one of the most important tools for navigating a good menopause is communication.
Good communication is at the foundation of strong relationships and for our fifth season of menopause: unmuted, we’ve decided to do things a little differently. Menopause can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be, and each of the stories you’re going to hear features a partnership of some kind. Whether that’s a romantic relationship, a friendship, or a sisterly bond, we’ll be hearing about the power of sharing experiences to find common ground and mutual support.
I hope that by listening to our wonderful guests, you might feel inspired to open-up and begin a conversation with someone you’re close to. And if you would like to share your own menopause story, I’ve left some information in the show notes on how to get in touch with the production team.
So, let’s meet our first pair: Karen and Mark have made an art form out of talking – AND listening – about menopause. But like most skills, it takes practice and dedication. The warmth and commitment between them are really tangible and I hope you enjoy listening to them as much as I did, I’ll hand you over to Mark to start the introductions.
Mark
My name is Mark. Karen and I have now been married for almost six years. We are both in our second marriage. I am an engineer and an operations manager by education and training. I currently work in the facilities management field. We have six kids between us and our second marriage. Things that we like to do center around our family. I'm very sports oriented. I love to watch sports, participate sports, coach in sports. And I also love to read and play on the computer and do things with our family. So, we are- I'm a very family-oriented person and enjoy supporting my- my children.
Karen
I'm Karen. I am 53 years old. I am currently postmenopausal and by background am an industrial organizational psychologist, so always looking for ways to make things more efficient and more effective. As Mark said, we are parents to six children, so they keep us very busy. In my spare time, I do like to read educational material. And am, I guess, I would say an amateur photographer, where I love to take pictures at our kids’ sporting events, and other family events, graduations, weddings, those kinds of things. I really knew nothing about menopause, other than it was a thing. It was not discussed in my family. So, I really had no knowledge of it.
So, I really didn't have a lot of symptoms in perimenopause, I think I probably just didn't recognize them. Although, I did not experience the vasomotor hot flashes and those kinds of things until after I actually had hit menopause. And even that is a little bit uncertain, because I did have an IUD inserted several years ago so I did not have periods.[1] So, the typical marker of missing a period for 12 months to get to that diagnosis of menopause was difficult for me because I wasn't having periods regularly. So, the doctor did have to do a blood test to confirm that I was in menopause. And once I hit menopause, is really when I started having more of the symptoms, at least the physical symptoms, I'm sure some of the mental health issues were there before. And that, you know, it's been difficult. I've had a lot of night sweats, a lot of joint pain, those kinds of things that just interfere with your life and the brain fog has been horrible. Difficulty sleeping, so it really has taken a toll on me, and I know has taken a toll on our marriage. I have been very open with Mark about what I'm feeling what I'm experiencing and trying to reassure him that it is not his fault. It's nothing that he did. He's a fixer, he wants to fix things. And he can't fix this. It's it's just a physical change that, you know, I go through. So, he's been very, very supportive.
Mark
So, for me, if I go back to my first marriage, my first wife passed when she was 51. And she had a lot of health issues. So, I didn't know anything about menopause because the health issues overshadowed a lot of what may or may not have been symptoms and results of menopause. As far as currently, Karen has been great about communicating and that's been wonderful. I am a fixer. I'm an engineer. So, I do want to make things better but one of the hardest realizations for me has been I can't fix it. So, I try to do what I can. But knowing and understanding this has been integral to our marriage. And when Karen says it's difficult, our marriage is not difficult. We have a wonderful marriage. We [we] communicate, we talk. Yeah, are there days that I want her to feel better, and I can't make her feel better because this is purely a physical or emotional thing that has nothing to do with me? Yeah, that's frustrating for me. I guess one of the biggest things I've learned is it's kind of amazing how widespread the effects of menopause are and that they're not the same for every person. And so, this is a very individual thing that we're going through together as a couple.
Karen
So how I work on communication, as I'm thinking about it is my first marriage failed, I would say, primarily because of a lack of, not even poor communication, but a lack of communication. And I refuse to live that way. So, I have some internal motivation to make sure that I'm communicating. But in communicating about menopause, and if I'm having a difficult day with Mark, I'm pretty much just straightforward. I will wake up and if it's a day that you know, some days, I just wake up crabby for no reason. I'm just crabby. And he will always ask me in the morning, “how are you today?” And I'll look at him. And I'll say, “I'm crabby. It's nothing you did. I'm just crabby today.” And I will communicate that to him. And then maybe avoid him for a little while until I can work internally on that crabbiness and kind of do some self-talk to get myself out of feeling so crabby. So that might, that's kind of a general, I guess, example. But that might be my example.
Mark
Yeah, but it's a very good example because I think we communicate directly. We try to take the emotion out of it, and you learn that this is not me, but I need, it's information I need. So as an engineer, it's stuff I need to know, I take it, and I use it. And but it prevents a lot of arguments over stuff that's silly and stupid. Because if Karen wakes up and says, “Hey, I'm crabby today.” Well, I know I can't fix her being crabby but then I start thinking of ways I can help. So does that mean, I go downstairs, and I do the dishes, or I take the garbage out or I do something that she doesn't have to do that is a shared role in our marriage. Anybody can do it. But if I can do those and get those out of the way and free up her time to do what she needs to do, it makes things a lot better. Really though, the hardest part and the best advice I can give to anybody, is it's not personal. And once you can get past that, that it's not something you did, or something that you can control, it can make huge strides in your relationship.
Karen
Yeah, I think another thing we do is use some humor and in a moment of brain fog, I have a couple of different sayings. But since we're on a public podcast, I'll say, “I suffer from craft: can't remember a flippin’ thing.” And uh you know I, so I, I joke about it and so he's very aware of it. And I will flat out say, “If I don't write it down, I will not remember.” And, you know, he's just incredibly understanding with all of it. But again, I'm communicating where I'm struggling, how I'm struggling, or if I'm having a great day, I communicate that also, like, “Hey, I feel great today.” If you take it too seriously, then you're just going to be miserable all the time. So, you know, while while some days were tougher than others, it's, it does just lighten the load to poke fun at it. And that is part of our relationship. I think we're both wise guys. So, it just, you know, it works for us, and it does make me feel better. And you know, Mark is always trying, when he makes me laugh, he always says, “I love to see you smile.” And if I'm having a bad day, then he puts even more effort into that to make me smile and just smiling makes you feel better.
MJM
Never underestimate the power of a good laugh.
But it can be hard to find the funny side when brain fog gets bad and starts to interrupt your day-to-day performance or communication.
Brain fog is a common symptom of menopause. Women who experience brain fog typically complain about difficulty recalling words and numbers, disturbances in daily life (misplacing items like keys), trouble concentrating (absent mindedness, losing a train of thought, more easily distracted) and forgetting appointments and events.[2]
Brain fog, irritability and concentration are also made worse by sleep disruption.[2] So, if you’re really feeling exhausted and struggling to get good rest, please do speak with a health care provider, because there are a host of things to try.
I had an in-depth discussion on brain health and menopause with Professor Pauline Maki in the Season 3 bonus episodes, and I urge you to take a listen if this is something that concerns you.
If you think you are experiencing menopause symptoms it can be helpful to speak to a healthcare professional and get peace of mind that symptoms like brain fog could be linked to menopause.
As Karen wisely noted, menopause is confirmed when a woman has not had a period for 12 consecutive months. However, in Karen's case, this was difficult to determine. Healthcare professionals use several factors to help determine if someone might be in perimenopause, this could include reviewing medical and menstrual history, as well as the signs and symptoms experienced. However, in most cases a blood test during perimenopause isn’t helpful because hormone levels continually change.[3]
Let’s get back to Karen and Mark…
Mark
When menopause starts to kick in, it changes the rules. I mean, that's one of the biggest things I've learned is that menopause doesn't play fair. It changes the rules. So, you have to be ready to adapt and I- a piece of advice I'd give to anybody who has been married that long is you have to step back and think of this as a new relationship because your partner is changing through no fault of her own, it's just life. But I do believe that being in a new marriage, it's-it's a little easier to work at it because you're expecting to have to work and you're not just set in your routines, so.
Karen
Ya know, you learn that person and who they are, and menopause really starts to change who you are physically, emotionally, mentally. You know, with some of the symptoms again, depending on how that person is experiencing it. So, I don't think Mark and I have those same kinds of expectations because we are in a newer relationship. And I was 47 when we got married, so I'm sure I was in perimenopause,so he's been dealing with it from the get-go. Perhaps unbeknownst to both of us. And I do think some of these issues and struggles with menopause have actually brought us closer together, because we do communicate so openly, and really try to work together to get through it.
Mark
And one of the other side benefits that I have found is that in learning about menopause and learning that I have to deal with the issues that it creates, and the concerns, problems, and things that change, is it's made me step back and look at just relationships as a whole. It's made me look at how I deal with both men and women at work. I used to joke at work and think about, okay, well, maybe somebody had a bad accident, or had a fight with their spouse or, or got cut off driving to work. But this makes you put it into a different perspective and step back and say, okay, let's give some people some space. And again, not assume they're out to just make my life difficult. And so, in dealing with Karen, and learning what menopause does, it's made me, I think a better person, and it's made me more respective of other people's space. And, again, I still can't fix it, still being the engineer. But it's- learn to just let things go at their own pace and to accept life a little bit better.
Karen
To Mark's point, if you're going into an office, there's a large number of women experiencing menopause,[3] and you don't know what their night was like, or what their brain fog is like, or if they're having a hot flash, how that's impacting them. And so, I do see some more empathy, in Mark, in not only our relationship, but his relationship with others. And hopefully, I have the same increased level of empathy when I'm working with others of, you know, kind of asking what's, what's going on with this person and not taking it personally.
Mark
And that also extends to our kids. Just because our kids, obviously, ya know, we have two girls and four boys. They're not going through menopause at this point, but it makes you respect the things they are going through. Because each stage of life has its own challenges. You know, our kids are in there, most of them are in their 20s, early 20s. And they're just trying to figure out what life means for them. So, this enables us to accept and try to help them work through their changes and just be better parents.
Karen
Yeah. And four of our children now are out in the workforce. So, you can be pretty sure that they're working with someone who's experiencing menopause. So yeah, we want them to be aware of how menopause impacts people, and especially our two daughters. Right now, still, in the United States, it's taboo to talk about menopause and it's just now starting to be discussed. And I want them to know this is coming. And at least here's how I'm experiencing it. But I would like them to have more of an education around, here's what it might look like. So, it's important, very important to me to at least, educate my daughters, because I didn't have that education.
Mark
So as far as work, and my career, I'm getting to the tail end of my career. So, one of the things that's very important for me, was taking the things that I've learned in my career and trying to do something positive with them. But also, I think where menopause and this education has helped me, is one of the biggest things I want to do is I want to help people succeed. Because I'm no longer trying to climb the corporate ladder. I've been there, done that. I'm very comfortable with who I am in the workplace. But now there are more people younger than me than- than older than me, that's the unfortunate part to be turning 60. But now I want to help them be the best they can be. And I get a lot of enjoyment out of that. I get a lot of enjoyment out of doing that with my family, with Karen, and at work. So, I'm in the facilities world, dealing with a lot of customers. So this has also helped me with understanding customer complaints and trying to, you know, because one of the typical complaints you get in facilities, “I'm too hot” or “I'm too cold.” Well, this puts a whole different perspective on it when you start to think about women who are experiencing menopause and are having hot flashes or are not sleeping and are tired, and you know, they want it to be colder because they want to stay awake. So, it's done a lot of that for me, I guess I'm in a giving stage of my life.
Karen
So, my background is as an industrial organizational psychologist. So, my role has generally been over the years to help an organization be as effective and efficient as it can be. And going through menopause, right, as Mark was talking, I was remembering a policy that I wrote about electronics in the workplace. And we worked in some older buildings at this point so there was concern about overloading the outlets with too many things being plugged in and that starting a fire and those kinds of things. So, I had many discussions about whether or not fans or heaters would be permitted. And had I been working on that now; I would have a very different perspective than I did back then when I was 40ish and not experiencing menopausal symptoms. So, you know, I think back to some of those things and think, okay, I probably would have handled that differently had I known more about menopause. I did allow fans and heaters, but they had certain specifications so just for the record, we did not ban those. But yeah, so as I've, as I've made my way through this menopause journey, or into the journey, I don't think I'm through it yet, I have realized and really have a passion now for wanting to educate all people, not just women, but all people about menopause, and how it does impact people and try to help people be able to work through that. So, I have actually launched my own coaching business. I'm a certified coach, as well and have launched my own coaching business with a menopause focus primarily with women at this point, although my goal is to start working with men, because I think they need to have an understanding of menopause. You know, seeing how this has impacted Mark and how much he has appreciated the information, I think there are a lot of other men out there who could benefit from it as well. And I'm very excited about that because I still think in the United States, there is not enough. Not enough support, not enough recognition, not enough education, not enough overall communication about menopause. And as we've said before, it's comin’. It's going to hit every person who has ovaries at one point or another. So, I really feel like we need to do more in our country around that.
MJM
[music]
I find the hope and inspiration within Karen and Mark’s attitude so powerful. So many of the stereotypes around menopause are about frazzled women at the end of their tether losing their patience with the world, but isn’t it enlightening to take a completely different approach? I think we can all learn from that, and I’m glad to say that more and more of my patients report that workplaces are slowly getting better at acknowledging the impact of menopause.
But we don’t need a policy to be a good colleague and if you’re really being impacted by symptoms such as anxiety, broken sleep and brain fog, I do urge you to find someone at work you can talk with. If that feels too difficult, maybe you could just share this episode.
This is menopause: unmuted where we talk about real women’s menopause stories.
I’m your host Mary Jane Minkin and if you’d like to listen to other women’s stories about their menopause experiences, visit menopauseunmuted.com
That’s also where you can get more information about menopause, and you can also talk to your health care provider.
Let’s get back to Mark and Karen.
Karen
We've talked a lot about communication but the piece I don't think we have specifically called out, is the listening, which is a huge piece of communication that, you know, Mark no longer tries to fix it right away, but he listens. And I do think that that's an area where you've had to work and have had improved on not wanting to fix it right away, but actually just listening to what I'm saying. Because as women, we don't always want to be fixed. I know that I know that's a surprise to you and some other men, but we don't always want to be fixed. Sometimes we just want to hug. And I think, you know, coming back to the communication, another piece of advice, maybe for some men is don't try to fix it right away, just ask, “how can I help?”
Mark
And I think going back to how that, you know, you talk about translatable skills. That's one that I think I've really spent a lot of active time trying to improve, but it helps it, you know, that helps with your kids, that helps with your family, your parents, work. Because a lot of times, it's not just women in menopause that want to be heard, I have found that skill has translated to work, where I'll have co-workers. And sometimes, you know, if you're in management, you got to make decisions, people will accept decisions as long as you've listened to their side. And so, I've tried to take that outside of just my relationship here with Karen and use that, and I've found it to be a very effective tool. It's amazing how many people, they’re not worried about whether you agree with them, but they just want to get to say their piece. And they want to be truly listened to not just heard, they want someone to listen and take the time.
Karen
So, for people who are approaching menopause, whether you are a couple or it's mother-daughter, or whatever your relationship is, I think first and foremost, what I wish I had done or had known when I was approaching menopause was to learn together about it, learn about menopause, and what that might look like, you know, what are the common symptoms, what are the things that you might be experiencing, and talk about it, talk about it together. It's not always easy. Again, if it feels taboo, if if you're in a trusting relationship, you have to rely on that trust, and open those lines of communication and, and talk about it. For me, the two biggest things would be learning about it and communicating about it and not being afraid to do that.
Mark
So, for those of you who are approaching a stage where either you or your partner are about to go through menopause, I have two words for you: patience and tolerance. If you're the man in this, you are going to have to be patient because you can't fix it. If you are the one going through it, I'm going to ask that you be tolerant because your partner is not necessarily going to understand everything. Karen's already talked about communication and education, and I think those are both important. But I think the key to continuing to grow your relationship which hopefully it will grow as you go through this process. It's a change, change enables growth, but you really have to be willing to be patient and tolerant of the things that are going to occur, how they're going to occur. And kind of go with the flow a little bit because things are things are now going to change, they're going to be different. Menopause is going to change things.
MJM
I just love that! Mark and Karen couldn’t have made a stronger argument for putting the effort into communication – it always pays you back in ways you might not have imagined.
So, what can we learn from Karen and Mark? We can hear in the episode examples of how good communication works for them, Mark has learned not to always jump to ‘fix it mode’ and to really focus on the listening aspect of communication, sometimes people don’t need you to find a solution for them, they just want to be heard. They learned about being really open, and sharing information about mood and expectations, even when it is a difficult conversation, and you can hear that humor has helped them to lighten the load. These skills are so relevant for all our lives, whatever life-stage you are currently in.
I want to say a huge thank you to them both for sharing their perspectives, and I wish them all the best for their future together.
I’m Mary Jane Minkin, and thanks for listening.
I’ll be back with another menopause story very soon, but in the meantime, you can check out our show notes at menopauseunmuted.com. And if you know someone who would enjoy this episode, please share it, and help to spread the word, I myself know a few men who would benefit from listening to this story!
Before I go, I’d just like to say: don’t suffer in silence. Don’t worry about speaking up about your menopause.
Women should be able to discuss menopause with their healthare providers. A woman can speak out about menopause with her OB/GYN, primary care provider, or nurse practitioner. There are even designated menopause practitioners that a woman can visit.
Special thanks to the Women's Health team at Pfizer and to Studio Health for producing this series.
Talk soon.
[Disclaimer]
This podcast is provided for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace discussions with a healthcare provider. Please speak with your healthcare provider regarding any health questions. The opinions expressed in this podcast are the opinions of the individuals recorded, and not necessarily opinions endorsed by Pfizer. The men and women in this podcast are participating voluntarily and have not been compensated for their appearance. The host has been compensated by Pfizer. The podcast is only intended for residents of the United States.
[Pfizer sting] The podcast is powered by Pfizer.
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